Almost one out of every two people in the world is female. Yet, women still face myriad issues when it comes to business. How do they make it to the top? What obstacles do they face? How do they juggle their family commitments and professional obligations? Has female participation at senior management levels increased over the last few years in Asia? Seher Hussain investigates.
First, a quick overview of the state of play. A 2012 Grant Thornton report indicated that 32 percent of senior management roles were held by women in Southeast Asia, a significant increase over the EU (24 percent), Latin America (22 percent) and North America (18 percent). From ASEAN, the Philippines and Thailand easily swept the top spots with a resounding 39 percent female participation rate, while India with 14 percent and Japan with 5 percent lagged behind.
Several factors play into these statistics, the most notable being that of a built-in support system. The resounding refrain from marketplace sources was that female professionals in Asia have access to affordable childcare and an extended family network, lending them greater freedom than their Western counterparts.
However, the problems faced by female lawyers in Asia are also unique to the region ranging from traditional-minded clients, who may prefer male partners on their accounts, to conservative societal pressure where ambition may be frowned upon.
From India to Indonesia, Hong Kong to Singapore, ALB takes a closer look at these pressing issues, presenting a snapshot of powerful and influential female lawyers in Asia; combining a Q&A with Tilleke & Gibbins’ powerhouse duo Darani Vachanavuttivong and Tiziana Sucharitkul and profiles of Indian trailblazer Zia Mody, corporate M&A maven Akiko Mikumo, capital markets pundit Teresa Ko, and Indonesia’s redoubtable Melli Darsa. Alongside is the coverage of the ALB’s Singapore Women in Law forum, a recent event that brought together over 60 in-house counsel and private practice lawyers to frankly discuss today’s hot button topics.
“You have to be organised and you have to prioritise, be systematic, but also flexible because once in a while, things go wrong, and you need to be able to adapt quickly.” Tiziana Sucharitkul
“Now, there is a shift in the culture, and sons and daughters are growing up at the same level and hopefully will end up being represented and maintained at the top management levels.” Darani Vachanavuttivong
Tending Tilleke
A formidable pair, Darani Vachanavuttivong and Tiziana Sucharitkul are co-managing partners of the Southeast Asian firm Tilleke & Gibbins. Focusing on intellectual property and dispute resolution work, here they chat about the challenges of being female lawyers, juggling their roles as mothers and managing partners, and the advantages of living in Asia.
Women handle a variety of roles - acting as a mentor, a leader, a mother and a professional - all in one sometimes. How do you balance them all?
TS: It’s certainly not easy to balance everything. Both Darani and I have families and young children and our lives are very full, especially with travel schedules to work with our international client base. You have to be organized and you have to prioritize, be systematic, but also flexible because once in a while things go wrong, and you need to be able to adapt quickly. You have to have a good support system, both at work as well as at home. We both find that if everything clicks, the rewards can be great. But it hasn’t been easy.
We are also fortunate to live in a place like Thailand where cultural and structural factors come into play to our benefit. We have, and rely on, great family support. It’s not unusual for in-laws or parents to live close by and help take care of the children. There is also affordable child care unlike some countries in the West, so we are very lucky. Technology is also a factor; being able to work remotely gives us the flexibility to leave the office early sometimes or to come in a little later, or just to get work done while sitting in Bangkok traffic.
DV: It’s not easy to balance a working life and personal life but I’m quite lucky that I receive good support from my husband and my family so I can feel free to work. But I also balance time with my family whenever I have time to give to them. So I don’t feel that I have any problem in balancing my working life and family life.
Top tier lawyers are well known for working long hours. Realistically speaking, is this going to change in the future?
TS: Providing legal services is a very personal thing. It is often based on the one-on-one relationships that you have developed with clients. So if you have managed to build your career to become a top-tier lawyer, it’s often you that the clients want. I don’t think this will change; so in fact, the more reputable you become, the busier you will be.
DV: I do not think the long hours will change much. You can, however, reduce long hours by having a very strong supporting team.
Research continues to show that having women in senior management roles is beneficial for business, yet the path for many women to the top of the legal industry is difficult. What are some of the main factors that you would pick out as being major hurdles?
TS: The major hurdle that I think most women face—especially in this industry—is that the legal profession is a male-dominated field with many men in leadership positions.
We’ve been very lucky to work at Tilleke & Gibbins as our firm is a very supportive place for women. It’s not easy to balance work and family, but we are in a place that has been as supportive as it could possibly be. The firm has always promoted women to leadership roles at all levels and being a woman at this firm is not an obstacle to climbing the ladder. Within our firm leadership, 40 percent of our partners are women and 75 percent of non-legal department heads are women. This essentially means that 92% of employees in the firm work in departments which are headed by women. So there’s a very strong feeling here that you are not going to be discriminated against for being a woman.
We have a strong family support system in place. Quite often people bring their children to work, if somehow their daycare falls through for the day. All our social activities, New Year parties, lawyers’ retreats and firm outings are for families, not just for the lawyers or staff members themselves. So we do have things in place that lead people to believe that this is a very family- and women-friendly environment.
In the market generally, however, it’s difficult to overcome the basic fact that women are primary family caregivers. In this male-dominated industry, some of the male leadership can be unforgiving in that they don’t take that into account and don’t allow flexibility for the way women must manage their work-life balance.
DV: This is part of the process and development of a culture changing and evolving. In the past families would only send their sons to study abroad, so it was men only who rose to become the top management. Now, however, things are changing. Sons and daughters are being given equal educational opportunities and hopefully this will result in more and more women being represented at the top management levels. One hurdle that remains is that women tend to devote themselves to the family more than men, and that will probably not change any time soon.
Do you think those obstacles will still be in place for the next generation of female lawyers, or are things improving?
TS: In countries which face greater problems of retention of female lawyers, there is a lot being done to improve the working environment for women. The workplace realises how valuable women are to the industry and are implementing various schemes and programmes to improve the retention problem; for example, allowing for part-time partners, implementing flexible working hours, organising day care at work, etc. So the situation is improving. However, simply because women are the ones who bear children and are usually the primary family caregiver, it will be very difficult to completely overcome all current obstacles.
DV: Thailand has improved a lot, as well as Malaysia, Hong Kong and the Philippines. There have been recent studies that show that Thailand is ranked in the top 3 in terms of having women in senior management positions, together with the Philippines. We have many females in the top management level of the law firms and opportunities for female lawyers are open—just look at our female prime minister!
How well would you say Thai firms are performing when it comes to female participation?
TS: If you try to think of predominant women in other firms in Thailand, there are immediately 5 or 6 names that come to mind. To name a few firms, Weerawong C&P, Linklaters, Chandler & Thong-ek and Baker & McKenzie all have very senior women partners. The percentage of women lawyers in Thailand continues to increase every year. We see that in our own recruiting process, when students apply here as new graduates or even in internship programmes. Currently the numbers reflect that more than half of our applicants are women. This is a positive trend.
Do you think there is evidence of any direct discrimination against women in law firms in your region?
DV: Not within the law firm itself. However, we have experienced a small number of clients who have expressed a desire to be represented by male lawyers. This is thankfully rare, but it does happen.
Do you think effective networking is an integral skill for female lawyers?
TS: Absolutely, networking is a critical skill for all lawyers. Here in Asia, for cultural and other reasons, women may face more challenges when networking than in other places. However, there are challenges everywhere and we just have to learn to work around them.
How about mentoring? Is that something you place importance on?
DV: Mentoring is very important; at this firm, it’s is one of the first priorities. We provide that to all lawyers whether they are male or female.
TS: Mentoring is an important aspect for any firm. For the growth and continuance of the firm, we have to make sure that it’s part of the culture. Of course, some people are better at mentoring than others but everyone is encouraged to do their best and we do have a system in place to acknowledge senior associates and partners who contribute in mentoring our more junior lawyers.
Do you have any advice for up and coming female lawyers?
DV: Work hard, have patience, learn new things and make a commitment to keep learning, even as you progress further in your career. Always be interested in learning more and more, because new legal and business developments are always happening, and you have to keep up with the changes.
TS: Work hard and practice in areas that are of interest to you and that you enjoy. I believe that if you enjoy the work that you do, you’re more likely to be successful and to find personal fulfillment in your career. That’s the most important thing. Have a goal and work towards it with the support of those around you.
Blazing a trail in India
Zia Mody, premier corporate attorney and well-known trailblazer, moved back to Bombay in the mid 1980s to start her own litigation practice. From there, her ascent has been dizzying; her firm AZB & Partners is now a top tier corporate law firm that has succeeded hand in hand with India’s global rise to power.
Looking back however, it clearly wasn’t the easiest of paths to tread. “I had come back from America, where there was a very different environment, and when I started practicing law in India, the first thing I did was actually litigation,” says Mody. “So really, I was exposed from day one to the court and there you found very few women, if any at all.” Despite the intimidating profile of the other litigators, Mody stuck to her father’s advice, which urged her to be well-prepared and work harder than anyone else if she wanted to see results.
Fast forward thirty years, and her firm, AZB & Partners, one of India’s largest, most prestigious law firms has a sizable chunk of female lawyers in its ranks. However, despite the business environment having changed so rapidly for women, hurdles inevitably remain. Mody says: “For women, it is really a struggle to maintain a work-life balance issue; nothing else. It’s just the guilt that continues non-stop. Do you sacrifice a children’s party because a client has a crisis, even though you have committed to that party? Do you not watch a movie over the weekend because something has come up, but your daughter has bought the tickets? It is the guilt that prevents many women from really going the whole nine yards. The problem is, as with most other professions, the legal profession is completely exacting and demanding.”
She does not see that changing in the future; pointing out that top lawyers are in demand constantly, whether it is from their clients, from people within the firm itself, or familial and community responsibilities. “I am a very committed Baha’i by religion, and I really feel that I have not given that part of my life and that passion enough of its due. There is never enough in your 24 hours!”
Mody traces back her drive and ambition to her childhood. As the eldest of four children and the only daughter, she credits her mother for instilling the notion of equality in the family. “She believed that as the eldest, I should be afforded all the opportunities. So I ended up being the only child that went for an undergraduate education abroad. My three brothers stayed at home.” Now, her family network also plays a crucial part in her success as a female lawyer. “I have personally looked for a lot of support from my immediate family, from my in-laws, and a lot of real support from my husband in terms of being very secure of himself.”
The environment clearly has evolved throughout her career, and she identifies a clear positive trend when she says: “Women are being recruited almost in the ratio of 50/50. It is a function of how they just do so much better in school, they work that much harder, are so much more committed. The sticking point is what happens to these women five or six years down the line; that is when it gets upsetting. When the pressures of maintaining a work-life balance becomes too much for many of us.”
What is her advice to these young women? “What is most important is for her to stay the course, for her to understand that other people have the same problems,” says Mody, “The good news is that she is not alone in her stress. That other people have done it! She should look forward to that as well.”
All-star dealmaker
Akiko Mikumo, head of Weil, Gotshal & Manges’ Hong Kong office, managing partner for Asia and a member of the firm’s management committee, has clearly scaled many towering heights in her thirty years as a practicing corporate lawyer. However, when she first started out, the world was a very different place for women. “There were fewer women in the profession; it was very male- dominated,“ recalls Mikumo, “We are one of the firms that are way ahead in terms of making opportunities available. We had two or three women partners back then.”
She continues, relating how stories would float around about how pregnant women could not appear before a judge. “Despite how shocking that may sound now, of course that was a different world back then. Women did not wear pants; we all had to wear suits and little bow ties. Thirty years is a short time, but (it is) a long time when it comes to social changes. So the world has changed for the better.”
Mikumo assert that although the business environment has become hospitable for women, the challenges that remain have become personal, not external. “It’s very difficult to still have a family, unless you live in Asia where there is affordable child care, especially when you are a young attorney.”
What about when it comes to actually chasing that career? Has it become easier for women? “I work all the time,” affirms Mikumo, “Doesn’t matter what sex you are; if you want to succeed or if you want to achieve certain positions, you need to have passion, you need to have ambition, and you need to work hard.”
She has seen professions and employers gradually become more understanding of female professional. “Now it’s not seen as an accommodation, but seen as something that you need to do in order to keep the talent; it’s more of an economic decision. If you want talent, you need to adjust your work environment. It is very tough to have children in this profession, but it’s more doable now, certainly.”
Mikumo deals with an elite echelon of corporate law practitioners, but has this traditionally male field posed any problems? ““M&A tends to be dominated by men as is the banking world,” she says, “but you certainly see a lot more women in high positions in banking and law, so I don’t find that to be a hurdle. The world in general is still male dominated but it can’t be that bad if I’m doing this!”
Mentoring is one of the methods she singles out as an integral part of any lawyer’s progression, male or female. It just shows you the path forward, she says. It makes you want to work harder, it gives you more confidence, and you are happier at the workplace if you have older people who are going to take you under their arm. “I have had some very key mentors at the firm from the minute I joined; people who really showed me things, and that contributes to the lawyer I am right now.”
Any other advice for up-and-coming female lawyers? “Just make sure you really like what you are doing,” says Mikumo, “The legal profession, is it the greatest job on earth? No, it’s just like any other job. But you have got to like what you are doing; you have got to find something that really excites you. There are so many things that you can do with the law, becoming a lawyer at a private firm, go in-house, go to a bank, public interest law, etc. That is definitely the key to any success. You are not going to be good at it otherwise. It’s just going to become a job.”
An icon in Indonesia
Melli Darsa, senior partner and founder of Melli Darsa & Co, is acclaimed for her high-profile securities, corporate finance and M&A practice, and is frequently at the table for most of Indonesia’s multimillion-dollar deals.
She struck out to establish the firm in 2002, but has always had ambitious goals. “Not working was never an option,” she says, “I had to work to basically fulfill the needs of a family. Nowadays, women do need to work even if their husbands work, and that was the situation that I faced when I first started this career.”
Rising to the top in Indonesia has not been easy, given the somewhat conservative societal pressure. “In terms of ability, I find so many talented women, but the same numbers are not actually reaching the top ranks,” says Darsa, “It is also their own mindset; they sort of slow themselves down. Sometimes, there is inherent pressure not to be so successful in Indonesia. There is a culture of not standing out, and women who are ambitious are not exactly the most admired people in this country.”
She emphasises that women who successfully scale the ladder are those that leave traditional firms to start their own ventures, those with a keen sense of entrepreneurial spirit. “What I have seen are women like myself getting out of a firm, setting up on my own, and then showing what we can really do because we have our own platform. That is still a challenge because at the moment, women are not able to reach the top by actually going through the normal motions.”
Apart from structural problems, other roadblocks remain - long hours, demanding clients, and the elusive work-life balance. “Unfortunately, this is a service industry and the client is king,” says Darsa, “…and when transactions are under deadline, you have to fulfill them by working late. It’s not possible to demand that the profession changes, but the work environment and law schools have to change the way that they are training people and managing the firms.”
The biggest issue is that of keeping women motivated, Darsa says, identifying a trend of a large proportion of females going into law school, but within the third or fourth year of practice, dropping out due to the challenges of balancing their personal and professional needs. “They are trying to be a young mother and a young wife, and that is when they start saying ‘maybe this is way too tough’,” she says. “They basically get out of the rat race and do not fulfill their true potential, which could have been to become a very strong long-term lawyer. You need policies that are more sensitive and more supportive to women who are raising children.” At her firm, such policies include part time nannies at the office, and flexible working hours.
Mentoring is another key aspect. “It’s not just supervision, but really trying to find out what their potential is and helping them through the complexity of a career that is not as clear-cut for women as it is for men,” she says. Looking back, Darsa points out that many female professionals initially tried to undermine their femininity, and hid the fact that they are mothers. But given the change in the working environment, “mentoring has become more important than ever in order to encourage women to stay on if they do have the talent, the potential, the willingness, and the commitment.”
“My life has not been perfect,” she says, “I divorced six years ago, I am a single mom, so of course there are pressures of a career. But what I share with young female lawyers is that basically you do have to focus on your relationships with your family and your spouse.”
She continues, saying there are costs to success, “but some say that balance is about being the perfect mom and the perfect wife and the perfect lawyer. That may be, and some people are very fortunate to have achieved that, but that is not happiness to everybody. You need to know what is important to you, and I always say that it helps to love the profession because if not, they will be very easily discouraged.”
Commanding capital markets
Teresa Ko is a founding partner of Freshfields’ equity capital markets practice and the firm’s China chairman. Based in Hong Kong and having practiced corporate law for over 25 years, she has a keen insight into the life of a powerful and successful female lawyer.
Having started her career in the City of London at a firm which did have a number of female partners, she recalls that she did not come across any particular obstacles in the beginning of her career. Was she encouraged to be a working professional from a young age? “Not at all, though I was told by dad that being a fashion designer is not exactly a serious enough profession,” says Ko, “He didn’t steer me in any other way, but I liked the fact that a law degree is intellectually stimulating and it is a career that I know my father would approve of.”
Much like any other high-powered professional, Ko also places priority on work-life balance: “It is not always easy to find, but multitasking and being hugely efficient certainly helps. I do try to find some balance in my life. These days, I enjoy visiting arts exhibitions and galleries, cooking at home with my children, and finding new shops as I still love fashion.”
She affirms that “doing high quality work for our clients and helping to develop and shape the market”, is a professional achievement she is proud of, while “personally, having a successful career with a very supportive husband and two teenage children who still want to talk to, and hang out with their mother, is my biggest achievement”.
Long hours are another struggle, which realistically, is not going to change in the future. “Top tier lawyers are well known for working long hours because a prerequisite for being a good lawyer is to show commitment and hard work, “ says Ko, “But with modern technology, a commitment to teamwork, and accommodating firm policies, top lawyers should also have a life outside work.”
What does she think are some of the main hurdles facing female professionals today? “The main challenges are managing work and family responsibilities, the lack of role models in the workplace, and the effects of unconscious bias/ stereotyping,” she says taking from a research survey commissioned by Freshfields.
Much like many other interviewees, she is fully committed to mentoring, believing that good mentoring gives mentees a trusted sounding board for support, advice, and guidance. Mentors can offer so much from their own experience and this is an important part of the nurturing of our talent, she says.
As for advice for the next generation, she says: “Follow your dreams. Be yourself. Continue to learn. And remember, don’t give up!”
ALB Singapore Women in Law Forum
In late May this year, ALB held its first ever Women in Law Forum event, bringing together over 60 in- house counsel and private practice lawyers to discuss the hot button topics of the day.
The panel consisted of Deirdre Stanley, EVP and general counsel of Thomson Reuters; Maija Burtmanis, associate general Counsel Alcon Asia, Novartis Pharmaceuticals; Rachel Eng, managing partner, -WongPartnership; Lee Suet Fern, senior partner, Stamford Law Corporation; and moderator Tara Joseph, producer, Reuters Insider.
One of the topics discussed was the importance of mentoring and support, a refrain that comes up over and over again when it comes to overcoming obstacles in the work place. Maija Burtmanis recalled that: “I look back and I am very conscious that as I was growing as a lawyer, so many women gave me an opportunity. (And) that is not women within the law firm, just women within the banking sector. So many women are out there working, and when somebody stuck their neck out to give me that piece of work when I was young and was not very established, it was a big piece of work and it really meant something. She was a voice in the community who said, ‘Give it to her, she can do it.’ You cannot underestimate the importance of that support.”
Other issues discussed included overcoming the challenges that are particular to women in the workplace, including work-life balance, external and internal obstacles, and the importance of hard work and networking.
The panel discussion is part of an ongoing series of Women in Law events that will take place throughout Asia and the Middle East.
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